The Tribulation: before during or after? Rapture Part Three

The tribulation is coming. Rough road ahead.

If the tribulation is coming does the church have to worry about it? Many teachers say no, but is that true?

In the video, linked below, the rapture part three, Ken Johnson lays out his reasons why he supports a pre-tribulation rapture.

This is the third article of a three-part series. (See here and here.) Each article highlights the teaching of Ken Johnson, who is a prolific author, writer, teacher, and scholar on a variety of Bible subjects. I strongly recommend his ministry. But in this series, I mildly object to his position on the timing of the rapture. I know, mildly objecting won’t get me any clicks and likes. 🙂 Well, we have enough inflamed hysteria in today’s world so I’ll stick to mild objection.

The mild objection. 

Ken believes in and teaches a pre-tribulation rapture. In that scenario, Christians around the world will be immediately “air-lifted” (My word, not Ken’s) off planet earth before a seven-year series of disasters hits the earth. The Book of Revelation details twenty-one chaotic events. Those seven years of chaos is the tribulation. His belief is the same that I held to for many years, so I am well aware of how he defends his position and which verses Ken can use to support that view.

What is my view of the rapture in relation to the tribulation?

Good question, I will develop that more fully in a year or so. I don’t expect the rapture any time soon, so I have time. The rapture is a correct biblical doctrine. Ken and many fine teachers present excellent arguments for that. But I no longer believe it will occur before the tribulation begins. I expect the rapture to occur sometime after the mid-point of the tribulation. On an unknown day or hour, just as the Lord said, he will break through the clouds with the sound of a trumpet, raise the dead and call the believers to meet him in the air.

Comments on the video:

Ken makes a lot of excellent points in the video. (It’s just audio so don’t expect any visuals.)

Here are a few points I want to make about Ken’s teaching.

  • He spends some time in Daniel nine explaining the mysterious gap between the death of the Messiah and the long delay before the final seven years of Daniel’s famous prophecy. This is excellent and worth giving yourself time to explore further.
  • Ken believes the Antichrist is ‘revealed’ when he confirms a covenant with Israel. This is a key point because if that is true, then the rapture would need to occur before the seven years begins.
  • Key passage

  • A key passage in the Apostle Paul’s teaching is 2 Thessalonians chapter two. There he says the gathering of the saints, (the rapture) won’t occur until the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist.
  • Ken makes an important comment about a third of the way into the lesson. He refers to three nations that have begun to position themselves exactly how Bible prophecy says they will in the last days. Look for that as you listen.
  • He then digs into Daniel’s chapter twelve which is all about the last days. The Antichrist, severe persecution, massive chaos, and the exact timing of the end come into sharp focus in this passage.
  • Ken made a comment that surprised me. He said he understands how many would read this passage and think the Bible teaches a mid-point rapture. Thanks for pointing that out Ken. That’s exactly the position I believe the Bible teaches.
  • Rapture and the tribulation timing mixup

  • In Daniel 12, Michael the Archangel comes on the scene and announces the commencement of 3 1/2 years of insane chaos, like the world has never seen. Ken’s view is that it all begins at the start of the seven years, but the context of the passage clearly shows only 3 1/2 years. But Ken very clearly explains how he gets to seven years instead of the shorter period. Listen to hear the explanation.
  • The teacher again mentions how it could appear this is when the rapture happens. Because at this time the resurrection of the dead takes place.
  • Ken rightly points out that the rapture and the resurrection of the dead in Christ happen in succession, right about the same time.
  • But it sure looks like it’s happening in the middle of the seven years according to Michael’s declaration.
  • And finally, I want to point out that Ken believes as I do, that there must be a rebuilt temple and a restart of the daily sacrifices in Israel.

So in closing, I have a lot of respect for Ken and his work. It’s a blessing and help to the Body of Christ. Please dig into his work.

But as to the timing of the rapture, it looks to me that it’s after the revelation of the Antichrist. That doesn’t happen until the middle of the tribulation. So after that mid-point, all hell will break loose. But Paul told the Church to take comfort in the fact that the Lord wouldn’t forget us. He would arrive at a day and hour that we don’t know.

Olivet Discourse articles to consider.

Olivet discourse, no man knows the day or the hour

Olivet Discourse: the fig tree and the last generation

Olivet Discourse: The Great Tribulation

 

Take a look at the following video/audio teaching.

 

https://youtu.be/_Sw65AVHDYY

 

 

The tribulation: When is it?
Will the Church experience the tribulation or skip out early in the rapture?

 

 

The ClayWriter

What did the early church fathers teach?

Get it here.


Comments

11 responses to “The Tribulation: before during or after? Rapture Part Three”

  1. Can you please explain the following scriptures from the O.T.
    1) Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, (God’s work and
    not the work of man) which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    Daniel 2:35 … the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled
    the whole earth.

    For it to grow, it cannot at any time diminish even for a second, or else it would stop growing. There is no indication of a time of removing a group in this scripture. The stone becomes a mountain and fills the whole earth.

    2) Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    God’s kingdom started in the Old Testament during the time of Daniel and will last forever. Nothing is said of God’s kingdom stopping to exist when a group is taken out.

    3) Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    The saints are not going away out of fear. They are to take over the kingdom of men.
    It may not look that way now but the Lord is not finished maturing us.

    4) Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    How can he make war with the saints if they are not on earth?

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    How can they be given into his hands if they are not on the earth?
    Do you think God will take you out and leave baby Christians to fight the Antichrist?

    5) Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Those of understanding are mature and are on earth to give the immature understanding and to help them overcome. They may fall in their course, but they will be purified. Some are taken away but they are taken away because they are killed.

    6) Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the
    slain of the LORD shall be many.

    The Lord does not come unnoticed but with fire and chariots.
    The Lord comes to destroy the wicked.

    7) Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of
    the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Malachi clearly tells us that Elijah or what he represents must come before the dreadful day of the Lord. Elijah has not manifested as of today.

    8) Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until (stay) I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    How can the Lord “stay” if He is coming back for a group that does not want to go
    through the fire of a tribulation? Who would ever want to go through tribulation?

    9) Proverb 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

    God’s word is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, God’s people will never be removed. It is the wicked who are going to be removed.
    10) Proverb 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
    Proverb 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    Again, scripture tells the righteous remain and the wicked are the ones removed.

    We should note that the wrath of men (and the Antichrist) is not the same as the wrath of God. The wrath of God comes with fire to purify.
    The wrath of men is to destroy, to put others into bondage, and to steal the souls of men. Never confuse the two.

    TRIBULATION YES OR NO in New Testament

    Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive (Jesus) until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    2) Jesus is coming back with His saints when He comes back. It does not say that He comes back with His saints on His second return but when He comes back. etc.

    Mat 22:44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till (until) I make thine enemies thy footstool? (1 Corinthian 15:26)
    Much more to be had in New Testament.
    Thank you.

    1. Thank you for those scriptures.
      I don’t understand what your specific point or question is.

      Judging by your comments after most of the passages you quoted, it seems you have a misunderstanding about my interpretation of the rapture and various end-times events.

      Could you reduce this to a simple question?

      Again, I don’t mind reading through passages, but I’m unclear on what point or points you are trying to make.

      1. The scriptures clearly show that the kingdom of God will grow until it fills the whole earth. There are no scriptures that tell us that God’s kingdom is going to diminish at any time, a pretribulation rapture.
        God’s saints are taking over. If you read the notes you will l see that.
        The Lord is not coming in secret but with fire and a trumpet. I wish in the natural that you were right, but I just don’t see it when you consider a few of the above scriptures.
        Many scriptures tell us the Lord cannot come back until certain things happen such as maturity in His people, death overcome, and more.
        It is always the wicked that are cut off.
        It is the wicked who were eating and marrying during the time of Noah and they were taken out. Noah and his family remained on the earth. The wicked were removed. this will be as the last days.

        Study it with an open mind. Meanwhile, I include some of the New Testament points also.

        New Testament.

        1) Act 3:21 Whom (Jesus) the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, (everything) which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

        Jesus must remain in heaven until everything that mankind has lost since Adam and Eve must be restored to mankind then He can come back.

        2) Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till (until) I make thine enemies thy footstool?

        The Father is speaking and He says that the Lord Jesus MUST remain in heaven until His enemies are put under His feet. The last enemy is dead. (I Corinthians 15:26)

        He can’t even come halfway. This is repeated in Psalm 110:2; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42; Acts 2:34; Hebrews 1:13; Hebrews 8:11; Hebrews 12:22; 1 Peter 3:22;

        Whom are you going to believe, scripture or man’s theology?

        1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

        3) Matthew 13:24-30 Another parable put he (Jesus) forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
        Mat 13:25 …his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
        Mat 13:26 …appeared the tares also.
        Mat 13:27 …from whence then hath it tares?
        Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. (the servant asks) shall we go and gather them up?
        Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
        Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first (FIRST) the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

        God will wait until the end so as not to damage or uproot the wheat The harvest is always at the end of the season and is never before the end. MATURITY has to happen before the gathering is done. The tares are first gathered up before the wheat.

        Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

        Jesus is speaking and He confirms that the harvest will be at the end of the world and not before.
        Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

        Ephesians 4:13 Till (Until) we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

        How mature is the body of Christ going to become? To the fullness of Christ. Yes, I know this sounds impossible but that is because we do not see what God will yet do. We only see the present-day chaos and that is why we want a disappearing act. We are yet children.

        You need to read the book, “Antichrist and the Third Day Overcomers.

        4) Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

        Once the leaven, the word of God enters the meal, it cannot, will not ever be removed. The whole earth will be filled. It will be filled with the glory of God as prophesied.

        5) Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
        Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
        Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

        The ear is changing, growing without being noticed, but it is changing

        Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, (mature) immediately he putteth in the sickle, (great harvest) because the harvest is come. (Thessalonians 1:3)

        Once the corn is MATURE then comes the great harvest. You never harvest the immature.

        6) 1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, (protected) and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

        1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (2 Thessalonians 1:10)

        Surely scripture would tell us if there was a prior coming, but nothing is said of a prior coming. We all wish we could avoid any and all tribulations in our carnal flesh.

        Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

        Jesus is coming back with His saints when He comes back. It does not say that He comes back with His saints on His second return but when He comes back.

        Check out the words “His saints” and you will see many places where it says that Jesus is coming back with them.

        7) 1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

        Scripture tells us a remnant will remain unto the coming of the Lord. The apostle was speaking to mature Believers when he spoke of remaining.

        1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

        If there would be a prior “taken away” this would have been the perfect place to mention it but nothing is said.

        8) Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

        Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

        Revelation speaks of the Overcomers. To overcome you have to remain and be on the earth. You overcome your sinful nature, the lust for the world, and you overcome the antichrist. You then rule with Christ. To rule the nations, they are still on the earth.

        Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

        They have to be on earth to overcome. They continued and were faithful even if they were put to death. They were not taken out or removed before being tested.

        9) Revelation 12:14 And to the woman (church, immature Christians) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, (still on the earth) into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (Still here for 3.5 years) from the face of the serpent.
        Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
        Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, (she is NOT in heaven) and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
        Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

        The woman, the church has to be on the earth to be able to have the man-child. You have to be on the earth for the dragon to make war against her. They are protected while on the earth. They keep God’s commandments. They are not removed. Why would there have been a prior removal of saints more than these saints?

        10) 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

        This is what it will be like when the Lord returns. He is coming as thief for those who are living for Him, the unbelievers and sinners.

        Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

        When Christ appears He will appear to all and all will see Him and hear His arrival. The apostle does not say at Christ second coming but when He appears, His people will also appear with Him in Glory.
        ****

        Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

        This is tribulation whenever and wherever a person is.

        Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

        Will there be a great falling away? Will it be because God’s people have been told a lie that they will be gone from the earth and are still on the earth to face a tribulation?

        Wow to the one who teaches false doctrine.

        1. I do not believe in the “secret rapture” or the pre-tribulation rapture.
          But I often link to articles and teachers that do. It is important for careful Bible students to consider the “opinions or interpretations” of different points of view.

          The return of Christ in the clouds with the resurrected saints will be a world-changing event that every eye will see. That is the “caught-up moment” when we “meet the Lord in the air.”

      2. The question is, ” How can you have a PreTrib or MidTrib that directly contradicts the scriptures mentioned? There are many more scriptures that could have been included. We are to grow up, do the works of Christ, and destroy the works of God’s enemy as the Overcomers rule the nations. (Revelation2:26)

        1. very good question.

          I agree with you that there are too many scriptures that support an interpretation that sees the rapture coinciding with the Lord’s return in the clouds as he initiates the final judgment upon the unbelieving nations.

Let me know what you think.

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